Episode 126: Rachel Hollis | How to ask better questions + Reconnect with intuition

Hello, loves. This is Sharon Pope and this is the Loving Truth. I have such a gift for you today.

We have with us the two time number one international bestselling author Rachel Hollis. Let me just introduce you to her super quick. Rachel Hollis is a two time number one. I. New York Times bestselling author whose work has impacted millions of readers worldwide. Through her books, speaking engagements and the Rachel Hollis podcast, she explores life's unspoken truths and engages in real conversations, particularly about challenges faced by women today.

A mother of four, an entrepreneur for two decades. Rachel's candid storytelling and relatable humor make her a beacon, truly a gift for those seeking fresh perspectives on life's challenges and triumphs. Now, you probably know her from her wildly popular books, girl, wash Your Face and Girls Stop Apologizing.

But in case you don't, then we are in for a treat and I include myself in that. So welcome Rachel. Oh, thank you. Thank you, Sharon. I am thrilled to have you here. You just launched a new book, what If You Are The Answer? And so I'm excited to see some of the Post-It notes and all the, my favorite, all the tabs.

Um, so I'm excited to talk to you today because we're gonna talk about. Our intuition. We're gonna talk about fears. We're gonna talk about marriages. We're gonna talk about all the things. All the things. Girl, let's do it. Yeah. You ready? Alright. Yeah. Alright. So let's begin with the gut instinct part. I know that there was a, there's a chapter in your book that, that is entitled, when Did You Know Something was Wrong?

And essentially it's like, you know, on some level when something isn't right for you, but then we don't trust it. Right? Yeah, for sure. Sure. Um, yeah. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Oh, you're good. In my world, it's like you suspect your partner's having an affair, but you're not sure you need to gather evidence. You know?

Or like I've even had, I've had women tell me that they knew walking down the aisle that it wasn't right. But they felt too, they felt like they couldn't turn back. So talk to me about this intuition. Why do you think that we just ignore it so often? Yeah. I mean, I think it's worth saying. How you and I met, we were sat next to, we were sat beside each other at this retreat mastermind.

I don't know how much detail you give about that stuff, but we were sat next to each other and Sharon was like, oh, I do this very specific work. And I was like, oh girl, have I got a book for you? Because so much of this new book is my. Writing and journaling and essaying through four years post-divorce.

Yeah. And for those of you who don't know my story, I met my ex-husband when I was 18 years old. Mm-hmm. Uh, like a lot of women I know, uh, got married very young and we were together for 18 years. So I had never even gone on another date before I went on my first date and then married him because that's still what you did in the culture I grew up in, um, evangelical Christian, raised to be a good girl.

You know, the, the best thing that you could aspire to in our community was like, you're gonna get married and you're gonna have kids and you're gonna be that person. And yeah. So we were together for a very long time. He was my best friend. Like in a lot of ways we grew up together. And if I'm being really honest now, I actually was just telling someone this the other day.

I remember. Very distinctly waking up in the middle of the night. I had two babies. Both of them were asleep. He was asleep, and I remember getting up and going and sitting on the sofa and just thinking what it would be like if I wasn't married anymore. Mm-hmm. Even saying that to you, Sharon, sort of makes my heart palpitate because.

I was so, it is still so ingrained in me that you're not supposed to talk about being divorced or not being together. Like till death do us part. You take those vows, you are committed. And the thing that's so wild about my story though, maybe you can tell me that this is actually a lot of people, is that when I first started having those thoughts, I did not have any justifiable reason for why I was having them.

And I can tell y'all now so many years removed from that experience, I freaking know. 'cause now I know everything. Back then I didn't know anything. I was so naive. I was so just like absolutely trusting. I was raised in a culture that said, your husband knows best. He's the head of the family. You just believe whatever he says, you do whatever like it.

All of that. The reason I bring up that night on the sofa is. I realized recently that my son was like two and that boy will be 17 this year. Oh, wow. So just to give you guys a thought, I got divorced five years ago, so that means for over a decade. I had these feelings in my stomach, these thoughts that would come into my head and I would ignore them and I would just like pretend it wasn't there.

I thought I was being, oh, I'm hormonal. Like I'm just upset today. I would just excuse away. Is that common? Do you hear that story a lot? It's so common. I think women's, it's. It's unusual that it happens very quickly. Mm-hmm. Most people stay there for years and many people stay there decades. Yeah. Like trying to figure it out.

Trying to talk themselves into a perfectly fine marriage that looks good. From the outside looking in, there's, he's not being, there's no, yes, I should be unhappy. It's so common, and then that's why I think we struggle with it for so long. Yeah. I think in retrospect, in so many ways. We were very mismatched as people.

Mm-hmm. But I didn't even know that I was allowed to want someone to sort of be a partner. Right. Yeah. Like I didn't know that that was a thing. Um, and it's also worth saying, I'm gonna kind of jump all around because I feel like your community, like I'm with you, they can go with this. Um, but for me. Um, this idea that, like, I didn't even know that I, what was possible in a partner when I decided to leave my marriage, I was not dreaming of like being in love again.

I was not like, oh, I'm gonna go find someone great. There's someone better out there. I was just like, I don't want this. I don't what, whatever this is, I, I cannot do this for one more day. Mm-hmm. But it was never about like, oh, 'cause there's probably someone else out there for me. Right. In fact, to get to the place that I had the courage to tell him that I thought our marriage was over was me getting to the place of, well, I'm probably gonna be alone for the rest of my life.

And that is okay. Um, but the night on the sofa all those years ago, I. I think was my intuition. Yeah. Beginning to make herself known. And it would take over a decade for me to listen and I would go through all the signs and symptoms that I now recognize as your intuition speaking in you ignoring it. So, um.

Uh, anxiety that got worse and worse and worse. And I tried everything I could to treat the anxiety and nothing would solve it. And it turns out that anxiety is like my nervous system being like, this is wrong. Um, I got. Bell's Palsy, which is facial paralysis. I had it three times. Um, I had vertigo for over a year.

Like all of these things, my body was literally shutting down and no doctor could find an answer. I saw every specialist, and yeah, it, in retrospect, I'm like, oh my God, my, my inner wisdom was just begging me to listen and I didn't know how. Underneath all that is the knowing is that that, yes, that this isn't right.

And I You said it brilliantly. It was just like, not this. Yeah. I just know this. I don't know what's on the other side. Yes. I just know this. Yes, and I have said this so many times. I probably wrote this in the book, but I've said it a lot on the podcast. My greatest lesson in that experience is that you may never know why your intuition was telling you.

That not this. Mm-hmm. And I mean for anything. I mean, when you have the gut instinct to turn right instead of left. Yes. When you have the gut instinct to talk to that person, or to ask that question or to do those things, you may never know why your intuition wanted you to take a different route home from work.

But when you begin to trust that wisdom. The ease of your life. Yeah. Like just everything unfolds in such an easier way. And I think it, I never, it's so hard to say, like, I never understood while I was married what my intuition picked up on. Mm-hmm. Now. I see everything. I've learned, everything I, there's stuff I wish I didn't know.

Yeah. But I so have the evidence to understand what my gut was screaming at me. Mm-hmm. And I just think on so many levels, if I had listened to that earlier, if I had used my voice, if I had demanded some truths, like any of that stuff, but I didn't, I just kept thinking it was my problem and I needed to fix myself.

If I would just fix myself, then we would be happier and life. And I think a lot of, yes, exactly, and I think a lot of, I'm sure men do this as well, but women especially, you're like, oh, I'll just, you know, I need to go to more therapy, or I'll have a little more wine, or I'll get on some antidepressants, or I'll do this stuff.

That all ends up being you, it. Like having to take responsibility for everybody in the marriage, and that's not what a marriage is supposed to be. Right. I often say that, uh, our intuition speaks to us in just simple sentences. It's like, it's like, stop, go. Yes. No, that's it. Yes. You don't, you don't get like, well, don't do this because if you do that, then this is what's gonna happen.

And that Exactly. Don't get all that. You just get Yes. No, stop, go. That's it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So true. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So, um, so I think, so for me, I tend to access that wisdom I have. In order to do that, I have to be really quiet and still, and that's why, for me, me, meditation is an important part of my practice.

Um, Martha Beck was my mentor in terms of coaching and amazing. Yeah, she's incredible. And she would always talk about how the world's just walking around dead from the neck down, because we're all in our heads so much that we, we've gotta be able to quiet that noise to be able to access that inner wisdom.

Is that how you, do you experience your intuition in your body or more in your mind? Like how do you experience it? I would say my intuition is in my body, but I really believe in guardian angels. I really believe in guides. I'm constantly talking to God and the universe and whatever is out there. So I would say that's kind of in my head, but intuition is in my body.

Yeah. Um, for me, I would say I get my most, most of my clarity. I actually did this last night, like couldn't sleep. Got up, everyone else is in the house, is asleep, went and sat on the sofa and journaled. Um, journaling's a really big part of. Just I, I don't know if it's because I'm a writer or because I like sort of the tactile nature of, of words across a page while processing.

I've also done a lot of work with like free flowing thought process, not censoring yourself, just writing everything that you can possibly think of to write and then going back after your, like a certain amount of time and reading what you've written, and it's sometimes shocking. What is revealed there that you didn't know you were suppressing or you didn't know you were thinking?

Um, another experience, just 'cause I'm thinking of your community. I remember this was years ago. I was still married, but it was in the last couple years of our marriage and, um, I was really starting to be aware, still never, never thought the word divorce until I thought the word divorce. I don't know if that makes sense.

Like I just was for years, like, how do I fix this? How do I fix this? How do I fix this? And then one day I was like, you can't. But um, a couple of years before we split up, I was doing a journaling exercise where I was. Imagining life on my next big birthday. So just like a fun thing that I like to do.

Think of the future. Who's gonna be at the party? What are you wearing? What's true about your life at this big birthday? That's not true today. How old are your kids? It's just like a beautiful visualization. Yeah, and I did this whole thing and I worked on it for quite a while, and I always think it's awesome to not give yourself any strict rules about.

Don't censor, just like write it all down. And I did the say. Oh. So, you know, and I went through everyone, my friends, my parents, like the kids and my work. And I went back and read it later and I was like, holy crap. I didn't talk about my husband once. Like he's not even there. Oh, wow. And it never occurred to me.

And I just remember that being like, oh dang. That that means something. That really means something. Yeah. Um, so for me, journaling is just this incredibly powerful tool. In my, um, studio over here, there's probably 50. I just have years of journals and I've just done it since I was a little girl. There's so many times that clients will tell me that they went back and read a journal from 10 years ago and they're like, it's the same.

It is the same. It was there, it was right there. How come I, I'm still, it was there years later. Yeah. I mean, amen. Like maybe that's what someone listening needs to hear right now. If you keep a journal, go read the journal from when you were first dating. Yeah. There is a, there are some revelations in those early journal pages that I was like, oh my God, Rachel, like it was all here, but I believe.

I wouldn't have my four kids. I wouldn't have this life. I wouldn't be who I am. Like I don't regret any of it, but I do think I stayed in it way longer than I should have. Mm-hmm. Like so many people, like you said, you wouldn't have had to blow up your life. Yeah. I burned down everything. Yeah. And I say probably four years.

Yeah. Beyond where I. Thinking about it before I made the decision, but it's not uncommon for someone to say 10 plus years. Absolutely, and it is this like, oh my gosh, what am I gonna do to my family? What am I gonna do to my life? My ex-husband and I worked together, so I knew that it would absolutely destroy the business, which was a business I had built for a very long time before he came into it.

And I was like, I am about to take a torch to this thing that I've worked on for so long, and I think. Ultimately, a big push for me was, you know, there's that thing a lot of women tell themselves. Maybe guys do too, but like, what will this do to my kids? Oh yeah. What will this do to my kids? What will this do to my kids?

And I'm the child of divorce and I always said I would never ever do that. And then one day I was like, my God, do I want them to think that this is what a healthy relationship looks like? Yeah. Do I want my daughter to think that this is what you would aspire to as a grown woman to like be an absolutely not.

And that was like a big unlock for me. But I think that if I had been more in touch with my intuition. Or had I ever even learned that word, you know, growing up it would've been so helpful because I really did come to that later in life. Mm-hmm. And so much of this book, the book, is all questions that I've learned to ask myself because that was the best way that I knew to, to tap into my own inner knowing.

And I was hoping that readers could do the same. But the question that you mentioned, when did you know something was wrong? Is like, ugh. You know? And this could be anything. This could be a job that you cannot stand an apartment where the neighbors are crazy. Somebody went on a date with, and you turned out to be awful.

Like anything that went truly wrong in your life, if you ask yourself, not when did it go wrong, but when did you know that it was going to go wrong? Yeah, yeah. Everybody is like, oh. Know, my God, it's early on, and if we can learn to listen to that voice when it speaks, it'll save us so much pain and so much time.

You're so right. God, there is another part of that book. There's so many parts that I appreciated, but this part I just genuinely, I actually used it today in a coaching call because I think sometimes women feel like they have to have the answer right now. Like let's say that they're in a. They're trying to, with their husband, they're trying to say, I'm unhappy and I, I would like to be more connected, but I don't know how.

They don't really have the words. And then their husband gets blameful or gets defensive and then it turns into a big upset and they think they've gotta have like the answer to no in that moment. And I think it is such like giving yourself permission is such a gift to just go, I need to step back and think about this or feel into this.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's hard to wait in the not knowing. Mm-hmm. It's hard to sit in that messy middle. I don't think a lot of people are very good at it. Mm-hmm. And because especially if you've been debating something for a very long time or sensing something for a very long time, there's gotta be a really strong part of you, even if it's subconscious that just wants something to change.

Yeah, if you're in the monotony of like the same thing over and over, like you're like, good grief. Just something. Yeah. So it's easy to latch onto the idea that like, I gotta, I gotta make a change right now. And sometimes that can be really helpful to just go and like let the chips fall where they may.

Yeah. But there is a real superpower in the willingness to allow yourself to just be still. Mm-hmm. Oprah has this great quote where she says, when you don't know what to do, do nothing. Mm-hmm. Like, if you don't have to make a decision right this second, do nothing. Yeah. Because eventually all will be revealed.

Mm-hmm. The universe will guide you. God will show you what's up. Like you will find the answer at some point. But if you don't have to do something right this second, don't force it because you also don't wanna do. Something wrong that you regret pushing and I think you don't like If you are with a partner and you're really fighting for that relationship, not everybody's gonna move at your speed.

Not everybody's gonna be where you're at. I remember years ago. I went to my first personal development conference and I was so pumped up and so excited. I went with a group of people from work and we were like on fire. We're like ready to take the whole world on, and one of the gals who was with us on the team came home and.

Walked into the door full of life, told her wife, oh, we are gonna, we're drinking green juice and we're getting up at 5:00 AM We're signing up for a half marathon. I mean, she's just like on fire for so working on herself and her wife was like, this is amazing, but I did not have the experience that you had.

So I am not ready for 5:00 AM and green juice and half marathon, and I love you and I'll support you in that. We have had two completely different experiences, so you cannot expect me to be at the same spot in this journey. Yeah, and it's just a really good thing to remember. Like your partner might not yet be where you are, but that doesn't mean they don't love you, and that doesn't mean they don't wanna work on it.

It just, it might take them a little bit longer to get where you need them to be. You know, it's funny, just the other day I read something, um, in a book where they talked about how the amygdala reacts so quickly, right? Your nervous system knows how to react and respond, but the prefrontal cortex needs time to catch up.

And I think that's what we give ourselves and we just take a, take a little moment for yourself to, to really think it through. To feel it through. To access the inner wisdom. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Especially for anybody. If you're talking about the amygdala, if you've had trauma in the past that has at all put you into fight or flight, and frankly, if you lived through the pandemic, like we all have some version of that that.

If that's your gut, if your gut instinct is, is fight or flight mode, it's gonna take it even longer. Yeah. Like you said, for your thinking brain, for your rational brain to think it through. And it's worth saying if you are a woman and you are at all near perimenopause. There's a lot. Yeah. Like there is a lot that happens with our hormones.

Mm-hmm. That not enough people are talking about in terms of it just. Relationships and it destroying marriages because you are like, I hate this person. I hate his face. I hate his hair. I hate everything about him. And then four days later, you're totally fine. That's actually probably just a great piece of advice.

If the feelings you're having fluctuate with your cycle, that's a, that's a heck of a clue. If it's a feeling you're having nonstop, that might be something that maybe you need some action on, but Yeah. But it's okay to sit in the not knowing. Yeah, it is. Yeah. There's growth there. There's goodness there.

Yeah. Alright, so there is a part in the book where you share a story about your first panic attack. She's a brilliant storyteller. Folks like her stories are amazing, but what I loved about it is you brought it around to what you need versus what you want. And sometimes like we want and need the warm hug and the compassion and all of that, but sometimes we.

Really want the warm hug and the compassion, but what we really need is a bit of tough love. Yeah. Can you share your experience with that and how you use that? Yeah, so the story in the book, like you said, is about me having a panic attack in my late thirties. Never experienced before. So I didn't know it was happening and I thought I was dying, like just, this is it.

I'm take the Lord's taking me home. Um, so I was at a concert with my now husband. He was a, a new, new boyfriend at the time. We were at a concert together and. I was having the best time, and all of a sudden I just felt really weird. And I tell the whole story of this crazy panic attack that I had at a Paul McCartney concert, which is an awful place, so disrespectful to the Beatles.

And, um, yeah. So when it's happening, I'm, I'm on the floor. I am, yeah. I'm like, just can't even function. And my husband, now boyfriend at the time. Is a tour manager. He's been a tour manager in the music industry for over 20 years, so he is dealing with me. I am already Sharon, so dramatic. You can't even imagine.

But imagine the drama when I'm having a panic attack that I think I'm dying. Yeah. And he is so calm and no matter what I would say. He would be like, you are fine. Happens at concerts all the time. The light, the sound, the people, you're having a panic attack, you are fine. And the more he would say it, the more I would be like, no, like I'm dying.

I'm dying. Like this is it. Like ask, you know, read me my last rights. And um, then he started to get almost rude. And he is not. He is the kindest, gentlest man ever. And he's like, you are being really dramatic, Rachel. Like, you are fine. I'm like, my heart is pounding. He is like, your heart rate is perfect. I'm like, I'm sweating.

I'm flop sweating. He's like, you don't have, no matter what I would say, he would tell me it wasn't happening. Right. And somewhere in like the higher reaches of my mind, I'm like, oh my God, he's actually a jerk. Because we hadn't been dating that long, and I was like, oh, this guy's been pretending to be nice, but I am dying.

He is being so mean to me. Yeah, he's being so mean. So, um, we go through this whole ordeal. He gets me back to the hotel and we get back to the hotel, and all of a sudden he's like so kind and gentle again. Yeah. And I'm too disoriented to even deal with that. So I fall asleep and the next morning I'm, I'm really hurt by it.

And I said, I feel like when I needed you the most, like you were so dismissive of me and I was having this really hard moment, and you just were like flippant to the point of rude. And he was like, oh my gosh, I tried everything. Darling, I tried everything. I, I cajoled you and I worked with you. She, he's like, Rachel, you had been on the floor for almost an hour.

I mean, EMTs were watching me. Everyone's in line for margaritas. I'm splayed on the floor. I'm taking clothes off. Like it was a situation, Sharon, and he's like, I had tried everything to get you up off the floor. Yeah. And you were getting worse. Like the more you were in your head, the worse you were getting.

So I realized that the thing that would snap you out of it was pissing you off. Get mad. And he did the, the, the moment that I started to come back into rational thought was when I got mad at him. Mm-hmm. Because I was like, this jerk does not know that I'm dying. How disrespectful. And that's what made me like, stop having a panic attack.

Yeah. So I said, I was like, okay. I just, I felt like when I needed you. You weren't there. And he said, would you consider that what you want and what you needed? Were two completely different things. Like what you might want in this moment was for me to like hug you and sit with you on the floor, but anyone could see that you were getting worse and worse.

And there were literally EMT who were like, are we gonna have to take her to the hospital? So he was like. What you wanted was a hug, but what you needed was to get angry so that you could come back into your body again. And I was like, oh, okay. Well fine.

It was a really good lesson for me because. I, I think we all have those times in our life where what we want in this moment is maybe compassion and we want someone to feel sorry for us, but that wanting isn't necessarily gonna help us get closer to the person we're trying to become. Yeah, there are absolutely times for that sort of slower pace, like rubbing your back, taking care of you, those things.

And sometimes you need someone. To tell you the truth. Yeah, and to hold up a mirror and to challenge your thought process because otherwise you're so in your own head. You are gonna be in this exact same spot again next year. Yeah, I so agree. There's so many times where like we just, human beings, we love our comfort zone, and so it's like the things that feel comfortable to us.

Like I'll say, you know, I'll go talk about my marriage problems with my girlfriends. That's easy, that's comfortable, but having the conversation with the person that I'm actually in the relationship with. Super uncomfortable. Yes. So there's that. What you really want versus what you really need sort of, yeah.

Um, not, not the same thing at all. But this just reminded me of the, there's something so wild about having been inside of a marriage that you were in since you were essentially a child, like 18 years old. No experience. You learned. How you're supposed to behave together, right? Like you build all of these sort of rules for what a relationship is or how we communicate with each other, or don't communicate with each other based on that experience.

And I remember when I was first dating my now husband, he had said something that I found really flippant and I thought he was sort of like being rude and for like four days. I just was like sick to my stomach about it. Hmm. And I was stewing in it and I was trying to think of how to say to him that what he had said had hurt my feelings.

And I just was like trying and trying and trying and like finally just I, okay. I mapped it out in my brain and I came to him and I said, Hey, when you said this thing the other day, it made me feel this way. He was like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. I'm so sorry. I would never want you to feel that way. I, I didn't mean it like that at all.

Thank you for telling me. Also, why didn't you just tell me in the moment and I was like. What, what that, and he like, why didn't, he was like, why don't you just tell me in the moment? Like right Then he was like, oh man, you've been like sitting with this for four days. That must have felt so awful. Yeah. Why didn't you just tell me right then that something I said was upsetting and I was like, I didn't know you were allowed to do that because I was in this relationship where.

You know, okay. We have to really gotta walk on eggshells and don't want him to get defensive and like, how can I say this in a way that can be received? Yeah. So there is gosh, a beauty in just like right then being like, woo. Yeah. That, that was, that felt like a zinger, you know? And then the other person going, oh gosh, I didn't, sorry, I had our day.

I didn't mean to come out. I didn't need to come out on you. Um, it's a, it's wild to be, yeah. Um, navigating that. Sometimes I'll just go, ouch. That hurt. Yeah. Yeah. It just be like something simple. We don't Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. I would love to talk to you about fears. Sure. My ladies, they have some fears.

Yeah. And worthwhile fears and I get it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's one of the things that keeps them stuck in this place of comfortable discomfort. For a long time because they have fears if they choose to stay, like, am I gonna waste more years of my life? Am I gonna show my kids a shitty example of what love and marriage looks like?

Like there's fears if you stay, and then there's a ton of fears if you decide to end your relationship. So they just get stuck in this place that doesn't feel good, but it doesn't feel nearly as terrifying as these other things. And so in the book, you talk about real fear versus imagined fear. Can you give your take on that?

Yeah, so most of the things I've been petrified of in my life never came to fruition. Mm-hmm. It is all just stories I made up in my own head about what was going to happen, and the truth is that the hard stuff that happens to us, in my opinion, not 8% of the time, are the things we never anticipated. Yeah, I don't know about your life.

Mm-hmm. But the worst things that have ever happened to me are things I didn't know. Like I didn't anticipate that, and that's also why they felt so hard. Mm-hmm. So for me, learning to understand how my body works mm-hmm. And that my subconscious, your subconscious, anyone subconscious does not know the differe.

Between the stories we're making up in our mind and what is actually happening to us, which is why you can have an anxiety attack based on a made up story that someone's gonna be upset with you or everything's gonna go to hell, or like it'll all fall apart. Your body then is experiencing the hardship more than once.

It's experiencing it every single time. You imagine that scenario, and then it has to experience something again, if and when you actually have. The decision to, to change. Right? Yeah. Um, so the question I think that chapter comes from is, who would you be without your fear? Mm-hmm. Is I say this again and again in life.

Like, you do not have to make a change when you know your truth. Just knowing your truth is incredibly empowering. Yeah, at least then you could be like, you know what? I know this isn't right, but I'm not ready to do anything about it is way more empowered than like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do.

Because that makes you feel like you are insecure in your own life and it's sort of training yourself not to trust yourself. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So who would you be without your fear at least just allows you to, you know, again, grab a journal, grab a pen. Well, I would be more confident in every situation.

And if I wasn't so afraid to talk to people, maybe I'd have more friends, community and you know, if I wasn't so afraid, then I would be this. And if I wasn't so afraid I would be that there's power in that question. But if I could give like a little sort of. Cheat code. I don't believe in like going back.

And if you could change anything or if you could tell your past self anything, what would you tell them? Because it would change the dynamics of it all right? But here's, here's something that might actually be helpful for your community and it's maybe a controversial way to look at this. Bring all Imagine worst case scenario.

Okay, go. Worst case, yeah, when you're thinking, I don't know if this relationship should continue to exist, and you're like, what if this happens and this happens and my kids are mad at me and my in-laws hate me, and the community chooses him instead of me. And imagine it like go worst case scenario, and then go, okay, and then what would I do?

And, and then what would I do? And then what would I do? Because the honest to God truth, Sharon, is that I did not have any clue how bad it would be when I had the courage to leave. I don't, I've ever even said that, like saying it, like making me choke up and sort of like make my stomach a bit sick. I. Had the stupidest, most naive perception that we were gonna continue to be best friends and we were gonna raise our kids together and we could still work together.

And I just had the, it was so naive and it, from the second that I said the words, it was a completely different human. And I think in retrospect that I probably was seeing him. In a more truthful way because people do really awful things when they're hurt. Yeah. And it was so much, I mean like make a list of what could happen in a divorce.

It happened and it felt, I just like truth, man. Like it took way longer than I thought, took like two years. Um, every single part of. That was hard and ugly. And, um, I attitude in the process was like, just say yes to anything he wants. Give him anything he wants. Because I had guilt about being the one who made the decision and that was a Oh sweet baby Rachel, like just the stupidest thing.

Just, just so, I mean like we're not gonna go all the way there, but what I'm, I more just want the listeners to like play with that for a second. Yeah. Hope to God. It's not that Maybe you get to be Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin and you get to have a beautiful divorce and still remain friends. Still be cool, but, but imagine the worst 'cause My Pollyanna optimism.

Imagine the best. Was just so decimated by reality and I think that they had had shown up a little bit more prepared for what might possibly happen. I could have taken better care of myself in that process. Yeah. There's a, can I read a bit from your book? Yeah, sure. Alright guys, there's a sentence here.

Here's what she says. The 14 years of work I'd put in as an entrepreneur had been quickly eaten up by a brand, made much more palatable. When I did that work alongside a man, being a good wife was the public preference. And when I chose to stop being that I was no longer acceptable to some, oh yeah. That like punched me in the gut because one of the fears for so many women is being judged.

Yeah. Oh yeah. It is now I have a really public job, right? So that you've got the added weight of an online community who's can be so awful. Um, but what I could not reconcile was every friend that we had that was a couple, was no longer my friend. Because the attitude was, well, she chose to leave. Yeah. And nobody knew.

Nobody knew why, and that was probably the hardest thing to carry, was I knew behind the scenes how bad things had gotten. I didn't know the full extent of all that had transpired until later, but I knew some of it. Out of respect for my kids and out of respect for him. I never told anybody like nobody knew.

So all of these people were like, oh, Rachel's just, you know, made it big and now she's too big for him and this poor guy. So I lost all of my friends that were couples. So many of the business relationships that were based on the work I had done, like there's a whole personal development community. That I was great friends with and suddenly stopped calling.

I mean, just like I, I lost it all. And because, 'cause they had made up a story, they had made up a story. And I think, I will never forget this 'cause this, this is my lived experience when one member of the couple is talking to anyone who will listen about how bad the other person is and one is just remaining quiet and trying to get on with their life.

The one who is doing the talking is the one who's trying to cover stuff up. Because if you are a healing person doing your wear, doing your work, going to therapy, you don't have time to like gossip about the parent of your children. You know, like it just, it doesn't even make sense. So it just was so much worse than I could have imagined.

And. I would do it again 1000 times every single day, knowing how bad. I mean, if I, if you were like, you gonna go back in time? And you could, I'd be like, yeah, if this is what it takes for me to experience the ability to raise my children in a home that's healthy and to take care of them and to take care of myself, I do every single day.

Every single day, and it was brutal. Yeah. So we've gotta talk about. The chapter, like buy the book just for even this one chapter, even though you've already gotten a taste of how good this book is, this chapter, would you sign up for this again? Yes. Yes. Okay. It's where I feel like I have to say the book is not about divorce.

It's not, I've just realized, I'm like, we're making it sound like I wrote. It's not, it really is a book about intuition. It is just that I wrote it in these years post-divorce, so I was really trying to. Discover and meet myself again. Mm-hmm. Now this question is actually something that I found as an entrepreneur.

Mm-hmm. And it is so stinking good. Like I love a question that when you hear it, you're like, oof. Like that one hit me. And I was watching this video on how to be a better manager of people. This guy, this, I don't even remember who it was. It was like super old school video. He said, think about an employee that you have right now that you have a lot of issues with.

And like immediately, like five people sprung to mind. 'cause I had a team of like, I don't even know it was a, at the end it was 60 people. So at this point, let's say it's like 35. Yeah. So I had a few people spring into my head and he said, now ask yourself this, knowing what you know now, everything that you know now about this person.

If they came in for a job interview today, would you sign up for this again? He says, if your immediate answer is not, absolutely, why are they still employed? Yeah. We stay in these relationships with employees, with old friends from high school, with partners that no longer service. We stay in these things because we have some.

Perception about sunk costs. Yeah. Or like, I've invested so much time, or I've invested so much money in this employee, or I've done what we've just, we've known each other for so long. Right. The length of time that you are with someone is not justification for the rest of your life. Mm-hmm. It, it is absolutely so crazy.

We buy into the idea that someone we met when we were like 20 is still gonna be the right partner for us when we're 50. Yeah. Or, or maybe they are the right partner for us, but we're not even taught that we're allowed to question that. Yeah. So ask yourself that about your husband or your wife, your girlfriend, your boyfriend.

That is crazy powerful if your gut reaction. Is not Absolutely. You have a real problem. Mm-hmm. You have a real problem. Um, another good one, this isn't in the book, but I can't remember where I heard this idea, but it was, I was reading a book about how to be more intuitive. I was learning about like auras and like reading people's energy.

I'm just a hippie and a nerd, so I was reading some book. Yeah, me too. And she had this practice. That I, of course did in my journal, which was to think about different people, you know, so like clear your mind and then think of someone that you know that you really love, like allow their image to come into your mind.

And what is the first word that pops into your head when you see them? And again, I was married at the time, but I was like on a, I had taken myself outta town for the weekend so I could do some. Some work and like journaling and like, I mean self work. Yeah. And I was doing this with my girlfriend, so I was like imagining one girlfriend and her face came into my mind.

I was like, oh, sunshine. That was my word. Yeah. And then another girlfriend came into my mind. I was just like, laughter. 'cause like she can make me laugh like no one else. And all of a sudden I thought of my husband at the time and out of nowhere, the word unmoored. Oh wow. Onboard came into my head and I was like, I remember sitting there on this deck and my eyes opened up and I was like, what?

Like, what is that? 'cause it was so, I don't even use that word, but it was such a apt description for this feeling of like, like lost. And now that I know the truth about his life, I'm like, of course, that is the word that came into my mind. He was so lost. He was so, you know, um, but just anything that you can do, any questions that you can ask or practices that you can do like this to better understand maybe what you're feeling, but not allowing yourself to think.

Again, you don't have to do anything with that information, but those like gut instincts, one word, what comes to mind? Those are breadcrumbs, man. Those are clues. That would, that are really important in not just making the decision that maybe this is done, but making the decision that you are gonna be a good partner if you're gonna be in this relationship, show up and showing up means, if I had had the courage, I would've went home from that weekend and said, Hey, I did this practice and the word that came to mind was this.

Let's talk about it. What does that mean? Why am I getting that sensation? Like, are you okay? What is going on? I. Rather than, oh, I don't, you know, I don't wanna upset anybody and I, I, you know, I don't wanna hurt his feelings and I wanna be a good girl, so I'm just gonna, you know, shove this down nice and deep and pretend it's not there.

Then you just carry it. Yeah. When I went through my divorce, I was in therapy afterwards, healing all the things, right. And I remember that therapist said, I have this couple that I've worked with for years, and on their anniversary every year they come together and they say, do you wanna do this for another year?

And I thought, well, isn't that healthy? Yeah. Because what works for us at 22 is not what works for us at 42 or 52. Yes, yes. And so renegotiate as we go, I wanna normalize renegotiating our relationship as we go. Well, and acknowledging that you are growing and you are evolving, and it is really normal for people to evolve away from each other.

Yeah. And if you don't want that to happen in your relationship, then you both have to actively be working to evolve together. Yeah. You don't have to be into the same things or be the same person, but you've gotta be both at the same pace because otherwise I. I grew up in the Christian faith and there's this part in the Bible that I always love that talks about two oxen being unevenly yoked.

Mm-hmm. So like if you have a really big ox that's out in the field plowing and it's next to really short ox in the field, plowing the yolk is uneven. They can't like match up with each other. And I think it's a really good analogy for what. A healthy relationship looks like you don't need to have the same strengths.

I think, you know, my husband now, we are very different, but the yin and yang really beautifully compliments each other. But you do both need to be at a similar level in terms of how your dealing with life. What are your values? What are your principles? How are you showing up? And if you're too scared to admit that maybe those things have shifted and changed over time, like if you don't have that.

Level of intimacy where you can have those hard conversations. It, it feels really dangerous to the health of your marriage. Yeah. Alright, I wanna be super respectful of your time. Let's do three quick questions. Okay. I'm ready. What are you most, what are you most looking forward to in the year ahead? I am working on a really big project that has nothing to do with books or personal development or anything like that.

So I'm really excited about it. Uh, I hope I get to announce it later this year, but for now, I'll just say a really big project. Just another reason to follow her so we can find out what it's, all right. What's your favorite book and why? Okay. I saw this on your list and I was like, truly, this is like asking me to choose a favorite child.

I know. It feels impossible, so I'm gonna go with my favorite book that I read last year because you mentioned Martha Beck, and I think the book Integrity should be like required reading to be a human. Mm-hmm. I absolutely love that book. I gave it away as my Christmas party gift to all of the attendees.

Just incredible. Highly recommend to everybody. Oh, that's awesome. The way of integrity is what it's called. Yeah. There it's, there you go. Um, and I love quotes. Tell me your favorite quote. I know it's asking you use Yeah, it is hard, but, um, this again, is Oprah. Like, all my quotes are Oprah, I think. Uh, so this years ago in her show, she said There's no such thing as luck.

There's only opportunity meeting preparation at a moment in time. That I just love that like I've spent my life preparing and hopefully opportunity shows up every once in a while and I get the chance to knock it outta the park. Yes. Alright, so everyone, I need you to go get this book. What If You Are The Answer, it's gonna make you laugh for sure.

It might make you cry, but uh, it will also help. Open you up to the experience of creating real change in your life just by answering questions and tapping into your own intuition. So how can people find more Rachel Hollis? Goodness. Oh gosh. Well, I have a podcast that I've had for like eight years and we do a new episode Monday through Friday.

So five days a week, you can get all kinds of ideas. Uh, my favorite social platform is Instagram. I'm Ms. Rachel Hollis over there. And, uh, yeah, those are the easiest ways. Come hang out with me. I want you to know you inspired me. I'm taking, I was just doing one podcast a week, and now I'm moving to two next month.

Because of our conversation. Yeah. I mean, I can tell you all the tricks at this point, but it is really helpful. Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, thank you first of all for just sharing your gifts with the world, but also for sharing your insights and your energy, and your time and your love with my community.

I'm so appreciative of you and I'm proud to know you. Aw. Thank you, Sharon. I'm very happy to be here.