Episode 85: What to Consider When You’re Considering Divorce

Welcome to the Loving Truth podcast, where it's all about finding clarity, confidence, and peace in the face of marriage challenges. And now, your host, relationship expert, and certified master life coach, Sharon Pope. Hello, loves. This is Sharon Pope, and this is the loving truth. I have a special treat for you today because I have invited my friend, my new friend Susan to be a part of this podcast and to share her wisdom with all of you, because her wisdom is vast and deep, my friends.

So let me do the proper introduction, and then we will get to today's call. So, Susan. Susan Guthrie has been a leading family law attorney and mediator for more than 32 years with Forrest Woody Mostyn. She founded the is it most? Yep. Mostyn Guthrie Academy in 2021 to provide gold standard family law collaborative and mediation training for professionals. Her award winning podcast, the Divorce and Beyond podcast, which I was on, you might want to check out that episode, folks, is one of the top 1% of podcasts worldwide and one of the top three divorce podcasts available.

Susan regularly presents at professional events and conferences around the world on topics related to family law, mediation, and legal tech. Folks, we have an expert here on all the things that you need to consider if you are considering divorce. And in my first conversation with Susan on her podcast, I just knew that I needed to bring her to you as well so that she could share her wisdom.

Because a lot of times when you're considering divorce, all the fears of what is awaiting you is what keeps you stuck from ever taking any steps. And so people can get stuck there for years. Yes. Actually, the average is four years of should I stay or should I go? That's the average. That's the average. Yeah. I know people are in my orbit for, like, two years before they ever take any steps forward.

So welcome, Susan. I'm so thrilled to have you here. And thank you for having me. I popped in there with some facts ahead of time, but I'm so delighted to be here with you, Sharon. Yeah. So let's just dive into it. I want to get into what are the top things that we need to think about as we're thinking about divorce. Give me the first one. You know, the first one.

And I'm so, by the way, let me just say, I'm so happy that we're talking about this. Thank you so much. Because when people have me on as a divorce attorney mediator, they want to talk about the nitty gritty of divorce. But this faith and time that you and I are talking about is actually based on my 30 plus years of being a divorce professional. This is actually the most important, most significant, most transformative time.

And so to focus on this, I applaud you for bringing this information to your audience. And the first thing I'd say to them, if they are in that space, if they're in that four years, if they've been thinking about it, is that they're not alone. Because what we know, as I said, is that the average is four years. And that this place, I call it divorce limbo, the hell of divorce limbo.

It's Dante's 10th ring of hell that no one that he forgot to write about because it's. And there's actually two of them. There's the ring of hell. That is, should I stay or should I go? Yep. And then they're the ring of hell that starts if you decide to go, because then you go into that sort of limbo of, well, I'm not really married anymore, but I am legally, and I'm not yet divorced, and I can't live my life yet.

Right. So there's all of that. But just know that you're not alone in this. I think it's such a lonely place to be and that people think that they're by themselves. And in fact, if they reach out, if they listen to your podcast, find your community, you know, there are people out there who are in the same place. It's such a powerful thing to know. You're not alone, too.

And I think you're right that a lot of people really view that they are alone because we're not out there talking about this. Right. We might talk with our closest confidants, our best friend, our sister, our mother, maybe a therapist and a coach. Right? But, I mean, no one's posting on Facebook, like, I'm thinking about divorce. I always say people don't like to like my stuff. They don't.

They don't like to be seen engaging with my work on the socials because it lets people into a place that they're not comfortable with them going. But then the, which I'm not suggesting they should be, but then they feel like they're all alone and they're not. There's so many people who are in the exact same position. And when you realize that you're not alone and that there are women that have walked this path, there are people that have done what, have sat where you've sat and have walked through this and come out the other side, I think it does give you strength.

It gives you some motivation that, like, I'm not the first to do this, not the first. And that there are those that have come before who almost invariably, you know, I'm on the other side. I've been through it myself, and I've helped hundreds, if not thousands of people through the process. Invariably, people are better off in their beyond. Right. That's why I called my podcast divorce and beyond, because I want to remind people that they're moving forward into something and that something will be better.

And the problem, the reason I think that people feel so alone is the conversation about should I stay or should I go or should I get divorced is inside your head. It's one you're having with yourself. And as you mentioned, right. Talking to friends, talking to family. We do that on a very limited basis, I think. And one thing that we know about our friends and family is they love us and they want us to be happy.

So their answers do tend to be what they think we want to hear. And not always the most. I mean, not that they're meaning to not be helpful, but that's not usually the basis for making a decision. No. Or they're answers to you are related to validating a decision that they've made. Like, I find that some of my clients, they'll tell the friend who's been through a divorce because they want to feel supported and they don't want to feel judged, but they also, they want to be validated, and their friend is going to validate their experience.

But someone who has been married for 40 years and believes that marriage should last no matter what, like, they're going to give you a very different experience because of their experience. So we all tell our own stories. And I think what I tell my clients is you've got to be able to get to a place of where it's your answer. It's not your best friend's answer, it's not your mother's answer, it's not your therapist's answer, it's your answer because that's when you can move through it, right?

Yeah. That is actually such a wonderful way to put it. I'm so glad that you said that, because that goes back to the conversation that may be going on in your head with yourself, but it's a necessary conversation because this really will be one of the most impactful decisions that you will likely make in your lifetime. This will have, you know, repercussions in many different ways. Some of them are going to be difficult, you know, change.

Some of it will be positive change, but it's going to bring about change for sure. You know, that is something that when you make that decision, the other thing that I know, having done this for so long, is you really, you want to know that you did put the thought and the effort into that conversation with yourself. Yeah. I like that idea of talking to a therapist. You know, I think there's a big difference between having the conversation with family and friends who, for all the reasons we were just talking about, might not be as helpful as they truly wish to be.

Yes. I am not in any way saying they're not trying to help. I just think there's a lot going on there, for sure, versus a mental health professional or a coach who's trained to support you, but in a more neutral fashion and in a fashion that helps you to have that conversation, be your sounding board, ask you the tough questions that you need to answer. Often that is where you need to go to sort of move off the should I stay?

Should I go? Should I stay? Should I go, should I stay? And it gets it out of your head, this, like, banter, especially at 03:00 a.m. it seems to get very active in the middle of the night, doesn't it? Isn't that when all of our exciting head conversations go on, yes. I'm going to solve all the world's problems at 03:00 a.m. sometimes. Oh, I wish I could solve even my own problem.

I think about them a lot. All right, so give me the next thing that people should be thinking of when they are considering divorce. Yes. I think it is a time to prepare yourself if this is the direction that you're leaning in, if you're leaning toward divorce. And I think if you're thinking about it and you've been thinking about it on, say, that average of two to four years, like you mentioned, you need to start considering that it's going to happen, that it is going to be a part of your future and prepare for there to be difficult days, difficult decisions ahead.

Difficult conversations ahead. It is something that you start looking toward getting yourself in a headspace and into an emotional place where you're going to be able to manage that. Because what most people do is they exhaust themselves with the back and forth conversation in their head. They feel like they made a decision, and then they are completely unprepared for the actual process that then follows. They've put all their energy and time and thought into making the decision without in any way preparing themselves for what's coming and understanding what's coming.

So part of what I think you need to do while you're in that state of should I stay or should I go? Is start to get educated and understand what's coming. But not just understand it, start working on strategies and skills to deal with it. And I'll be honest, what that probably calls for, again, is a coach. Yeah. I love that you said that. I wasn't expecting that.

I thought that you would say, like, prepare yourself. Like, coming from a lawyer's perspective is like, get your paperwork in order, understand what your assets are, understand your liabilities, know what the laws are in your state, all the things. Right. And I thought that's where you were going to go, which it's not that those things are unimportant, but there's so much more to. You're getting ready to walk through one of the top five stressors you will ever face in your lifetime.

You, if you do not have your mental wherewithal, if you do not have your head on straight and you're not really grounded and feeling equipped and even confident that you can navigate this and hopefully navigate it peacefully, it's going to be a hot mess. It can. It can really turn into a horrible, like, next year or two years of your life. And that is why it does for so many people.

You know, there is a perception out there that divorce is one of the worst things that you'll ever go through. And I'm not here to say that it's not. You just mentioned on the scale of life stressors. For most of those scales, it's like number two behind the death of a child, right. It's the only thing worse is losing one of your children. It is difficult, but part of the reason why it's so high on the stress scale is because people are not prepared for what they're going into.

Right. They have not built up their resilience. They've not built up their reserves. They've not gotten the support and the help that they need. They haven't thought it through and started to look forward. They're still looking back. And that's why I say, I think the entire perception of divorce over time will start to change. If we can get the message to people today that if you are contemplating it, contemplate it from a place of getting prepared.

That is the things you talked about. I won't say. I mean, I am a lawyer. You know what? That's what lawyers do. We can tell you what paperwork to pull together. We can tell you and get you a financial CDFA to help you pull together your budget and those things I can't get you emotionally prepared. That's right. And give you skills to deal with the difficult decisions, days, and conversations that you're going to need to have.

Right. If you're feeling mentally strong, you'll be able to pull together the paperwork. But if you are not mentally strong, the paperwork can send you spiraling. It can send you into the fetal position where you're like, I can't do anything. You know, like, so it's really important. And I'll tell you, like, I had someone share who's in my community, and they shared this morning how last night was the last night that they.

That they were going to spend in the same house together. So today she's moving out, and. And she said, because of this work, she goes, you know, I reached out to him and I said, I know that this is hard, and I know that this feels awkward, but can we just. Maybe we should just watch our show together. Like they had a show that I guess they watched, and they sat down and they watched it together.

And she goes, I felt so much more peaceful going to bed last night than I did before having that conversation because we were just avoiding each other. We were both hurting. We're both filled with fear and all the things, but we just. We found compassion for each other in that moment. And I think we both slept probably better than we thought we would the night before. I move out after 25 years of marriage, you know, and I thought, that's what it's about.

And I said, you're leading the effort because you're calm and you're grounded and you've got your mental. Like, you're really trying to do this peacefully. And so in that moment, you reach, you turn towards him, as opposed to turning away from him and making him the villain. And that is going to make a huge difference throughout this process. So it's big. Tell that story again. Tell it all the time.

Reel on it. That is. That is exactly what I'm talking about. That's someone who, as you just said, she did the work. She's been doing the work. She is ready and prepared. This is the difficult moment. Everyone out there listening, think about this, right? They're in the house together and she's going to be leaving tomorrow. How easy would it have been for her to just turn and go off to her own space just to get through those last few hours?

But instead, I love how you said it. She turned to him, she made an offer, he picked it up, and they will go forward in a different way. And that actually goes to what is my next point? So I'm just going to build on it because it will. Because it's such. You so beautifully set it up here is that don't make any decisions or do things in the early days of making the decision that you will come to regret later.

And by that, I mean don't make decisions. Don't treat yourself like the bad guy. Don't, you know, don't go out and hire the meanest attorney that you can find because you're scared or you're angry. That is what people do. This is very, very consistent. I mean, that is people they think about back and forth, I'm going to get divorced. I'm not going to get divorced. I'm going to get divorced.

I'm not. Then they decide they are, and it's as if in their mind, some sort of gun has gone off and papers have to be filed and lawyers have to be hired and we got to get this thing done. You got to get your butt out of this house. The kids have got to be told all these things have to happen. No, they don't. And most likely they shouldn't.

Right. Right. I call it the grace of space. And it's the time to be, oh, God, please, everyone, give yourself the grace of space. And give yourself the grace of space. Right. So that in this early phase of the progress, no major decisions that are going to have a lasting effect on your process or your lives are going to be made. And that is very importantly, do not my colleagues get so upset with me, my divorce attorney colleagues.

But I'm like, do not, unless there's some sort of emergency. Like a true one. Yeah. Like yourself is, you know, dissipating assets or taking the children out of the country or some sort of emergency, do not go out and hire an attorney right away to get things started. Right. It doesn't need. Many people negotiate their entire divorce without ever having filed the papers. Yes. You do not need to start that nasty gram off until it becomes necessary.

And the thing is, think about it. When you are all tied up in your emotions and these emotions that are coming up are all fear based. It's all fear and worry and probably some guilt because of the hurt that you think you're causing and all the things like, are you your best, are you your most creative problem solver? Are you, like, you know, the one that can show up with all the solutions?

Like, you're not? So this is why you shouldn't be making these huge decisions in a time when your emotions are in upheaval because you're making decisions from a place that isn't grounded, that isn't kind of all. I don't say all there because, of course you're all there, but you're just not at your best. You're actually not all there because here's what we know about where you are. When you're feeling high emotion and stress, that's when your brain is giving off all those stress hormones, cortisol and adrenaline.

And what do they do? They shut down rational thinking. Yeah. You are not. Yeah. Because you gotta go run and hide from the caveman or the dinosaur. Right. You're in fight or flight. You actually do not have the ability to make good choices when you're operating from that place. Right. And so that's what, you know, there's this attorney that I met when I was practicing in California, and he handed me his business card and the tagline on his business card.

When the rings come off, the gloves go on. And it had two lawyers with boxing gloves on the business card. Yeah. And it turned my stomach, I'll be really honest. Because what he was doing with that tagline and with that approach to clients was reaching out to them and pandering to their fear to get them to hire him. And that is what is wrong initially with our divorce process, because if you hire that approach because you're afraid, because you're not thinking this through, even though most people say they want an amicable divorce, they're afraid.

So they hire this, like, you know, I'm gonna fight for you. And then when you calm down, down the road, it's very hard to walk back to a place where now you're gonna fire that guy. Yeah. And go hire someone who can be more reasonable for you because you've already started going down the conflict train. Right. And how you start, this is how this is going to go.

Like, I remember one of my clients telling me that she got all freaked out. She's in the scarcity mentality. And she went out and she hired this cutthroat attorney. And her husband found out because she didn't tell him right away. He found out because they do. Eventually they know. And so he's like, oh, well, you're ready to go to war. I need to go to war, so I'm going to go do the same thing.

And she was trying to walk that back, and she couldn't because she's hired him. And. Or I assume it's a him. I don't actually know whether it's him. Or her. There are those attorneys of both sexes. Yes. Yeah. So how you start this and how you approach it has a huge impact on how this goes. And when you said, when the rings come off the gloves. Go on.

What struck me was how many children have had to pay the price for adults in fear, not knowing any better and just feeding into that fear and then going to hire someone who's just your job is to pummel the person that I said I was going to love until the end of my days. There's no possible way that that can be healthy or mother of your children. Right.

There's no path to health and peace for your children in that path. There's no. You can't get there from there. Yeah, you can't. And you've mentioned, you know, it will set the tone for how your divorce will unfold. And more importantly, it will set the tone for how your life after divorce will unfold, because the more contentious and conflictual your divorce is. And when you hire an adversary of attorney, trust me, you're going to have a contentious divorce.

Now what, you're going to suddenly see rainbows and sing Kumbaya when the divorce is finalized and you go forward and co parent? Absolutely not. It just gets worse. It gets worse. I tell people, if you can't communicate when you're a couple and you go through a contentious divorce, do you think that's going to get easier when you're the exhale? No, they're going to care less about what you want.

And now your kids are going to have to be that intermediary. They're going to have to be the ones navigating that, like, oh, at my high school graduation, can mom and dad sit together or are they just going to argue at my college graduation, at my wedding, do I have to have them at different tables? Do I have to have them on opposite sides of the church at our first grandchild's birthday party?

Like, are we going to have to have two first birthday parties for the grandchild? Because my mother and father can't be emotional adults and they like it just, this is the rest of your life sort of thing. It's not even just this one or two years. If you have children, it's forever. You're going to be in relationship forever. This is a matter of what's that relationship going to look like and feel like.

And most people aren't happy about that outcome. I mean, one of the things that we know, because research has, tons of research has been done on this, is that most people who go through a contentious divorce or go through the traditional litigation process, even if it's not the boxing attorney. Right. Even if it's just that traditional litigation process. We know that most of those people are happy the divorce is done, but they are very dissatisfied with the process and the outcome.

They don't like it. They don't like how much money it costs, they don't like how much time it took, and they don't like the outcome. And it's because people make choices about the process in the early part of their divorce when they are likely the most emotional about the divorce. Right. And nobody's doing cartwheels and happy about the divorce. So we know, you know, you said scarcity mentality out of a place of fear, out of a place of anger.

Anger is just misplaced here. I mean, right? It's all of those things. Trust me. Even a year or two from now, if you're in that space of fear, anger, whatever it is right now, even a year or two from now, you are not going to feel those emotions the same way. No, you aren't. Your emotions. Right. But there's potentially damage that's been done if you're not paying attention and you're not making conscious choices.

Okay, give me another one. Sort of leads to the next tip that I would give people, and I've kind of alluded to it here, but when I tell you to take that grace of space, most importantly, don't go run out and hire the cutthroat attorney. What you should do, and I would say this even maybe before you make the decision to divorce, if you're vacillating back and forth between.

Should I? I am probably one of the loudest proponents of getting a divorce coach, a good divorce coach that there is on this plane. I have a lot of divorce coaches that are my friends, that are my colleagues, and who I have seen change the entire face of divorce for their clients and prepare people for all the things that we've just been talking about. If you have a good coach from the beginning to hold your hand, to support you, to teach you the skills that you need, to help you plan and prepare all of the things that we just talked about so that you know, you're not alone, you got your team member to help you build the team, help you pick the right attorney in the right process, your divorce coach is the team leader.

They really are. Nobody ever thinks that. They think they're just sort of this, I don't know, like a frilly collar on a dressy dress, right? There an accessory? An accessory. They're the most important team member that you can have, and that's my divorce attorney. Colleagues do not love me when I say that. But I'm saying that to your listeners and I say it to anyone who will listen because I have done this for 30 some odd years.

I have been there holding people's hands as their divorce attorney and their mediator for that long a period of time. And I know the difference that it makes when there is a coach involved and when there is not. I just know I've seen it, you've seen it. And if I can give people one tip for an advice, the best money you will ever spend. Yeah. Is on your divorce coach.

Right. It's always interesting to me that you know people because you view it as an accessory or like a nice to have but not a need to have. But then you're going to pay someone else by the hour to fight for you when maybe fighting isn't what's going to best serve you or serve your family long term. And if only you have, if only you were equipped with those tools.

And by the way, you should not look to your attorney to be your emotional support staff system. So many people look to their attorneys who are like, what they're brilliant at, I feel like, is negotiation and getting at the facts and figuring out what's like feelings and what's facts and coming to an agreement for you. And sometimes that can become contentious, but they're certainly not your the one to equip you with real tools to help you do this peacefully, especially if they're like, you know, the guy with the business card.

Like he gets paid by the hour. The more contentious it is, the more money he makes. So let's armor up. Let's do this. Well, I can tell you, let me give you all just a little insight to what law school is. Law school is not touchy feely. Law school is not soft skills, active listening and conflict management. Law school is what does the law say? What do the facts say?

And how can I make the two of those come together in a way that gets my client what they say they want? That is what law school is, how to think like a lawyer. Right. And lawyers are always thinking about how can I use the tools, law and facts, to win, to get my client what they want to win. To win. That is not how you restructure your family.

Right? You just said something. We're restructuring your family. That's all we're doing. I often will say, like, you can still be a family. Like, I'm thinking of one client right now in particular where she's like, look, we still call ourselves a family. We do Christmas together. We will go skiing together. But we. They're now each partner re partnered up and all the things, you know, but. And some of their friends are like, you shouldn't say that.

That's confusing for the kids. And they're like, look, mom is always going to be mom. Dad is always going to be dad. The nature of our relationship is changing, but that doesn't mean we don't care about each other. We do. We just aren't going to be in our most intimate relationship with each other anymore. And when you start to think about it from this perspective, this is one perspective of, we're still a family.

You're just restructuring it. You're restructuring the nature of it. And that you get to choose what that looks like versus this is a failure. And now we have to hate each other because if we cared about each other, we should stay together. But if we hate each other, then we can get divorced. So I have to villainize this person, and they have to villainize you. And then the kids, by the way, are.

No one's telling them that they have to choose, but when you're both pointing at each other and saying each other is at fault, now the kids have to, like, figure out who's right, who's wrong, who do I side with? And God forbid, not only are they having to navigate their parents divorce, but now they might lose, lose a parent in the process because now, well, they're the bad guy.

So I'm not supposed to love them anymore. Like, that's tragic. It's tragic. We don't have to do that well. And think about how horrifying that is. I really. That entire little process that you just described, and to all the parents out there who are, in their mind saying these words that I have heard, God, I wish I had a dollar for them. Oh, our kids don't know that, you know, things aren't going well.

Oh, our kids don't know. Yes, they do. They do. They absolutely do. They pick it up. Your children are little radar antennas, and they absolutely know. And even if you do not say to them, you need to choose me over your other parent and prove to me that you love me more, even if you don't say that, your child will feel it. Yes. And, you know, you described.

I love how you just described that because it's really the thinking, like, I have to villainize you and hate you. So that we can get divorced, because if I still care about you, then we should obviously still be together. That is a paradigm that is false. The best relationships for your children are two parents who still care about each other. You might need more space from each other in the early days of this restructuring process.

God forbid you don't. Right. You probably do need some more space, but that does not mean that you don't care about each other. That's right. And that you don't care about how, you know, this process and your children's relationship with their other parents. And that's where children end up in a healthier, you know, family and environment. The idea that we can take a legal system that was created to deal with breached contracts and automobile accidents.

Right. And we were going to take that same system and use it to restructure a family in a healthy way. It doesn't even make sense. If you think about it, it doesn't even make sense. I've never thought about it from that perspective. Like, that's what the law was set up to do. But certainly not to. Yes, but not to restructure your family. No. And that's why people invent wrongs, because the system is built on fault in the breakdown of this marriage.

That's the whole system who did what. And so that's why if you go through a litigated divorce, even if it's not one where you have the nastiest attorney, the process itself is geared upon who's at fault, who's the who did wrong, so that the other person can get more and win. It is not. And that's why I said at the very top of this episode that, you know, truly a healthy divorce doesn't involve the court system until you have negotiated and worked out all of your issues in mediation and collaborative, in kitchen table chitter chatter.

Yes. On hell of divorce, you know, online, whatever way you want to do it, lawyers are not lawyers at the table, lawyers in the background, whatever. But you do not have to involve the court. And the minute you do, your, your divorce is going to take a different road. Yeah. And you're going to leave it up to someone who doesn't understand what's happening in your family dynamics. They're only going to see the facts of what you're able to present as facts.

So present. Right. Let's bring the code of evidence in here now. That's right. And talk about everybody thinks they're, well, I'll just go tell the judge my story, and the judge will go, oh, you poor thing. How could you put up with that for all those years? I'm gonna give you everything. That isn't how it works. It's not how it works. I often, I often will say, darlings, there's, there's math and there's drama.

In divorce, you can have all the feelings that you think you're entitled to. Something like, I remember someone who, she was getting a divorce, and her husband had cheated, and he had moved out, and they were getting a divorce. And so she was like, well, he doesn't deserve half the equity in the house. I mean, he left. He's the one that cheated. He left. I'm like, I mean, I hear you, but the court doesn't care who he's sleeping with.

They probably don't. So you can, you can feel like he's not entitled to it because he hurt you. But they have to operate from the facts, not, and from the law, not from your feelings. Facts aren't feelings in this scenario. So, yeah, here we are. All right, Susan, give me. Give me the last one. What is the last one that you tell people? These are also building on each other so perfectly, because my very last one is.

Is embrace the opportunity that divorce brings. And people are out there listening right now going, what are you talking about, woman? They're leaning in right now going, ooh, I hope. Because here's how I want you to look at this process. Even though you're scared, even though you're angry, even though you're upset, even though all these things are going on in your life, think about all the times in your life where you have had the opportunity to build a new future that suits you and who you are today.

You know how many times that's happened? Probably once or twice. Maybe, maybe, maybe a lot of us don't have those opportunities in life. This is a rare opportunity where, yes, the future you thought you were going to have with your spouse is no longer there. But don't look at that as, like, this big black hole of a future now, which is what I think so many people say.

Look at it as a beautiful opportunity and really put some time, thought and planning into what you want that future to look like and include, and then start building toward that as you move through the divorce. And I say that very specifically because I mentioned this earlier. Right. When you go through divorce, if you're going through a litigated divorce, it's very past focused. It's very focused on what happened during the marriage in your past.

Yes. And if you spend your whole divorce looking back there you are going to find yourself divorced with no plan, no idea of where you're going to go from here. And it's actually one of the most untethered, horrible feelings. Like, oh, my God, this is what I have. Whereas if you can shift during your divorce to let the past be in the past and think about that future and plan it so that when you make decisions about the issues in your divorce, support, child's care, you know, alimony, the house, all the things, all the things you can make decisions that will support this new future you're trying to grow to.

Yes. So that you have a plan. I often say that who you enter into a divorce as is not the same person. You will come out the other side as. And we don't actually know who he or she is going to be, but it's going to be different. Like, I remember I, there was some very. I can look back at it now and giggle about it, but I remember when I went through my divorce, I sort of, someone talked me into buying our house because they were like, Sharon, you're going to need a tax write off.

You really shouldn't sell this house, blah, blah, blah. So I moved back into the house that he and I lived in with the same neighbors who knew us as a couple, who really liked us as a couple, and now I was the one that's together. It was super inconvenient to them. I remember the guy across the street who was really good friends with my husband. I came home from work one day and I came around the corner and he was out mowing his lawn, and he saw me come around the corner.

He went in his house, and he stopped mowing the lawn. He went in his house. I pulled my car in the garage. I put the garage door down and I went around the front, and I looked out the window, and he came back out after, like, he wouldn't even, like, you had cooties. Cooties. They can't even look at me like. So I think I lasted about nine months there and then I sort of raged against being in suburbia.

And then I'm like, I'm going to live downtown. And then I went to, like, high rises downtown until, you know, a few years later. And then I'm like, okay. I can see how, like, I could move back into a house instead of a condo. And, like, it just. You're going to have new preferences and whether it's where you live. It might be your hairstyle, it might be your clothing style, it might be how you decorate your house, how you live, how you support yourself, what you eat and, like, how much you work out or don't work out or move your body, whatever.

Like it's going to change and you get to create it, which can be really exciting or scary. And both. Honestly, it's both. I've been through it, too. I always tell people, God, I don't even actually really like the person that I was when I was married to my first husband. Right. A lot of me was tied up in a bad relationship. I changed vast, vast ways afterwards. And I think you make a really good point.

So when I'm talking about building toward that future, you also make the point that you will be a different person as you heal, as you come through this. On the other side, you don't have to make final decisions either. So maybe instead of buying a new house, maybe you do what you did and go rent downtown, if that sounds interesting to you. But take those opportunities to start building a life that speaks to who you are right now, because guaranteed, you've probably changed from when you got married, will change through the divorce process and honor that, be who you are.

It's one of the actual benefits. I know nobody thinks there are benefits to divorce, but go back and ask someone who wasn't permitted. Go ask the women who couldn't get divorced back before there was no fault. Whether there's a benefit to getting divorced right now that they're trying in some states, to repeal no fault divorce. Right? That's. Are you kidding me? The idea that. Oh, yeah, some of the conservative states, Mississippi, Louisiana, they are trying to repeal no fault divorce.

You could only go back and get divorced if there's provable fault, which is a whole nother episode. I have it on divorce and beyond. Feel free to go listen to people. It makes me crazy because, you know, there's so much to it. But, you know, that opportunity aspect of this is something that I do think that people have a hard time grasping. I get that. It's, again, why I named my podcast divorce and beyond, because I don't want people to forget divorce, whether it be the process, whether it be the mental state, whether it be whatever it is, a finite time period.

It's a moment in time. Yep, exactly. And you get to decide. Yes. So, Susan, you've mentioned, you know, the trials of litigated divorce, pun intended. So I know what you mean by that. But I want to be, like, so direct and clear because I live and breathe in the space as you do. So. But people who, this is their first potential divorce. You're talking about, like, how should they do it?

What is the like, obviously mediation or doing? Trying to come to a lot of agreement between the two of you and then mediation and then lawyer up. Like, what do you see as the great process? You know, I would say it's going to be different for every couple. My personal belief is that, again, because of the emotion and because it's a process that likely people aren't that familiar with, I think it helps to have a guide through the process guide.

Right. So that's one thing that a mediator is for a couple. They are partially the process guide. They're there to help the couple identify the issues that they need to decide on, help them make those decisions, help them have those difficult conversations. So in my mind, that's sort of an ideal process because it can be curated to meet their needs. So it can be just them with their mediator, it can be them with their mediator and their financial advisor or advisors.

It can be them with their mediator, their advisors, their coaches and their attorneys. I mean, we can have whatever support team they need to have to whatever extent involved. A mediation can be curated for that. The key to mediation, collaborative divorce, kitchen table divorce, working it out together, any and all, is that the two of you commit to each other, that you are going to work together collaboratively, whether I mean collaborative divorce or not.

I mean that you're going to work together. Yeah. In order to come to the best decisions for your family, as opposed to. And I appreciate that you mentioned the trials of a litigated divorce. I want people to understand what a litigated divorce is. A litigated divorce is where you have an attorney who's representing your interests. They have an attorney who's representing their interests. You two don't talk very much at all.

You might argue that happens a lot in litigated divorces. You might send some hateful text messages back and forth that'll copy us on them. Like, that's, you know, by the way, you get charged for those texts and emails that you copy us on, but the attorneys are doing all of the negotiation, all of the talking, and then they go. So it's telephone. It's telephone lawyering. Telephone tag lawyering.

Yeah. Here's what's going on behind the scenes. Your lawyers are following a very set process that is prescribed for us by the rules and regulations of the court and the laws of your state and jurisdiction to do discovery, to pull together certain information to make sure that we do it to, you know, exhaustively. Right. That we subpoena this and that we, because you know what we are doing.

Gonna be really blunt with you all. We are covering our ass because we are lawyers and we are held to a standard of care and ethics, and that means that we have to do everything that we are supposed to do unless you sign off on it. And you know what you don't do because you're afraid. Sign off on it. You don't sign off on it. So we do it.

So that means we do a lot of work that probably wasn't that necessary or probably didn't have a great return on investment, like subpoenaing the bank records and bringing the bank manager in to bring the statements that your spouse missed. Three of them. Do you know how much you're going to find that was hidden in those three statements? Probably zero. Almost nothing. I'm giving you some extreme examples.

But an attorney in a litigated case, although we're negotiating a settlement, we are also, at the same time, preparing your case for trial, because we always have to be preparing for trial, because end run, if you get to trial, we got to be ready because that's our job. And so if you don't start your divorce with that agreement that we are not going down that road, we are going to sit at this table, either figuratively or on Zoom or whatever, and work together to work through this and give each other the information that we need so we can make these decisions.

If you don't make that commitment, you're going to go down that other road and there's no getting out of it. That is the problem. The further down the litigation road you go. Yes. You could go to a mediator six months into your divorce, a year into your divorce, right before you go to trial. But you are now already set into your emotional space. Yeah. Of litigation and adversity.

Yes. So now you already have all the, call it hateful feelings of, you're the enemy, you're the enemy. It's set. Yeah. It's setting base. And so now, yes, you're going to come to a room and we're going to talk about settling your case. I am a mediator as well. I can tell you. I do both kinds of mediations. There's a huge difference between a couple who at the beginning of their dividend divorce agrees.

They are going to try to work through this as best they can and cooperatively as they can, versus the four, the two attorneys and the two clients who show up, who've got a trial date next week, and they've got ten issues that still need to be settled. We're now going to argue as if I'm the judge, which I'm not, is a mediator. Right. Right. It is an entirely different process.

And the results, we may settle both of those cases. In fact, stats are we will settle both of those cases. Right. But the people who agreed from the beginning are going to go forth, prosper, and have happier, better co parenting lives and children. The people who got to the courtroom door and just managed to, like, fight out that last final settlement, they are not going to have the same result.

Yeah. And I can tell from experience, most of the stuff you fight about will not matter a few years from now. You will not. I don't even believe that you fought about it. You won't care about the charger plates, people. You won't. You won't care about the fine china or the sofa or whatever. It will not matter. It will not. And you know, one of the best pieces of advice during a divorce that I've given to clients when they are fighting over the stuffed frog and the CD collection, which is an actual full day hearing that I had once, is in one year, will you care about the stuffed frog?

And it was a real stuffed frog, too, by the way. Who wants that? And a CD collection that, by the way, they could have gone and gotten to both two new brand new CD collections and new sound systems with what they paid the attorneys to litigate that day. Right, right. It won't matter down the road. What will matter is that you can pick up the phone and talk to your co parent about Johnny's not doing well in math.

Yep. It will matter that your kids don't have to worry when they get off stage after the school play, should I go to the left to see mom or go to the right to see my other mom? Mm hmm. All right, which mom should I go see? Right, though? That will matter. The grandchild? Do we have to have two different birthday first birthday parties for our grandchild because we can't be in the same room together?

That will matter. Yes, that will. Yep. For generations. Really? All right. Well, Susan, thank you so much for just sharing your light and sharing your wisdom. And I appreciate you so much. So, obviously, people can find you at the divorce and beyond podcast. Is there anywhere else that people could find you and your work? The best place is the podcast website, divorceandbeyondpod.com. it's also available on all major podcast outlets.

And I hope people find some hope and inspiration there. I really, I don't practice anymore. As you know, I don't actively, you know, work with clients anymore, but 33 years of knowledge crammed into this tiny little brain of mine. I just really want to get this out there for people so that we can change the face of divorce. And so I appreciate very much your having me on to talk about this.

Thank you. Yeah, it's good that you said that, because probably you would get a thousand calls of people going, will you represent me? Will you work with me? Will you get a fair number of those? And by the way, I know a lot of people. Yeah, you do know a lot of good people. I'm happy to give referrals, but I'm not actively practicing anymore. Yeah. All right. Well, lady, thank you so, so much.

I am just appreciative of you being here and taking the time to share your wisdom with my audience. So thank you. Thank you. If you're listening to this podcast because you're struggling to decide whether to stay or go in your marriage and you're seriously about finding that answer, it's time to book a truth and clarity session with a member of my team. On the call, we'll discuss where you are in your marriage and explore if there's a fit for you and I to work together so you can make and execute the right decision for you and your marriage.

Go to clarityformymarriage.com to fill out an application. Now that's clarityformymarriage.com.